It was meant to jerk everyones chain. Religious Organization. The author writes in an article titled I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. Its where two or more are gathered not where two or more thousands are gathered. These overly dramatic talks tend to make me feel like Im not spiritual enough or theyre covering up something. Agreed. It definitely wasnt the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). I would be ok disclosing financial information to my community group. (note spelling a/e) I have met small groups all over the Dallas area of cast aside individuals who bonded over the abuse they experienced while attending this organization. Then there is the whole LakeRead more . Readers write about Watermark Community Church's stance on gays, Ken Paxton suing Brownsville, black lives also matter, Michelle Obama and Dallas Stars fans. Perfectly said Scottie. But, you provide NO evidence, NO situations Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. Products. Case Summary. Wagner said he is excited about what God is going to do at the church in its next season and urged the congregation to obey their leaders. Im thankful you have experienced the controlling, entrapment, and triangulating side of WM. Spiritual authority has nothing to do with title, education, or rhetorical ability (2 Cor 10-13). Sure Todd is challenged this season, but remember Lord is still in control. Awaken Conference 2021. He has people who fund his life so no donations are used for that purpose and so he can fully focus on running the mission.. do you have knowledges that Todd is spending money frivolously? Forgot account? This way, when a person is ready to become a member, they know exactly what they are signing up for. Its not a cult. If you are going to judge Watermark, its leaders and programs, then I would encourage you to do so in the context of Scripture, especially the New Testament, including the gospels and the epistles that talk about church order, and yes, even discipline. That is only for the married folk. In January, Wagner returned from leave to preach his first sermon and received a standing ovation from the congregation. There are many issues at Watermark. If we believe that, we should also have a desire to please God, and want the way we live our lives to reflect that desire. Per Todd Wagner I was not the right person or the right fit or whatever he thought. The elder team is interdependent of each other, creating a system in which it is impossible or highly difficult to discipline or remove any one elder. I have shepherded groups at Re|EngageI do not trust the leadership at WM Re|Engage. Jackson Elliott contributed to this report. He had no recollection of ever having seen or met you before because he was so self absorbed. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about. Watermark Family, Throughout the fall, we have shared that, as an Elder team, we have focused on three main priorities: Strengthening our leadership team Reengaging our members in the life and ministry of the church Equipping our body for a changing world We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. Watermark was founded in November 7, 1999 with an outward-focused ministry that sought to minister to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." [1] Watermark averages about 9,000 weekly attendants. Thats for God to reveal or conceal. He added that there are just too many layers and that even Friedrich and Thompson land at a different place than (Leventhal and Wagner) regarding why weve arrived here., Both Wagner and Leventhal will remain at Watermark as elders emeritus, though the church said it is proactively pursuing men to add to the Elder team., According to the church website, Wagner and Leventhal will spend time with their families preparing for whatever the Lord has next.. The guy has an ad that comes on YouTube where he goes through how his org is run. I am not sure what is wrong with elder rule since it is biblical. Pastor Todd Wagner, abuse. I was wrong and truly apologize. its raw observation on your part you arent being led at all. Scripture also says live your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark. But not everyone wants that, and for those people there are lots of other churches that offer community groups, small groups, life groups, etc. Watermark is very good at many things but also very bad at a few. It is Not referenced as a legal tool which may be weaponized against anyone they desire to control or experiment on. This is a quality and important post. Not Todds decision but good try on the poor stewardship bit. Why do you throw a stone (more likely without looking at yourselves first). While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. It is very helpful and lets us plan financially well. Visit us at 9:30 or 11:00 am CST on Sunday . During his address to the Watermark Community Church congregation in September, Wagner told them [], Did anyone see this Sundays Sermon? Does anyone find this highly hypocritical? Im saying that outta love and also saying it truly saddens me to see many of you have hardened your hearts. Did he stay to minister to anyone in need? Kind of smarmy too., You use some strong name calling, words Psychological warfare Is a good name for it. On 05/28/2008 THE STATE OF TEXAS filed a Property - Eminent Domain lawsuit against WATERMARK COMMUNITY CHURCH. Embattled Dallas megachurch Senior Pastor Todd Wagner has resigned from his position after accusations of spiritual abuse led elders to question his leadership of Watermark Community Church. like hes a programmed automaton. * For What? But, we ALL should be. Im confident Todd wagner has done more to help people than all commenters combined. You may be thinking of a different Todd Wagner, who is a longtime partner of Mark Cuban. You are experienced and know your Bible and subject. Reminds me exactly like Steven Furtick and many other pastors. Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. Stonebriar Community Church. I think you need to expand on the 4B Spiritual Assessment forms. Let me guessthe PASTORS of this church DONT have to be real and disclose THEIR salaries, sins, struggles.right???? Thanks for giving up the last word. We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. so what. If youd like a suggestion for a charity outside of our church well gladly help you. They dont even take a collection in church! Sounds like something Whoopie Goldburg would say. Remember how CJ wrote a book on humility and then some of the staff said he was anything but and instead was quite controlling. Todd gave me support and comfort during a rough time in my life, and I will be FOREVER grateful. however, since evangelical leaders have redefined gossip to mean dont rock the boat to protect their power, careers, and revenue, can you explain what you mean by gossip? And some community groups are less intense. Wow Andy, you got to do more than just Google the name brother. I just loved his style of preaching. And this is important. He hides behind the church to bully people whether in the church or outside. Came off as legalistic trolling. Incorrect. But why? The first being last and the last being first is not how most Christians think. Thats the other dallas todd wagner who is mark cubans partner. Poor Todd. In the online video, Leventhal described the process of discernment with Wagner as heart-breaking, exhausting, and expensive for Leventhal, his wife, the elder team, and the campus pastor team. I was so disappointed reading all the comments, especially when considering the targeted audience for this site. Thats a new one on me. My challenge to Susan is to give citations for the quotes she gives. Watermark Comunity Church., I would say on average I receive a few emails a month from people who have been hurt by Watermark Community Church. I asked Susan if she wouldnt mind answering a few questions for this post, which she was happy to do. seems to me median, or less, is reasonable (relative to the community where the church exists). Why is it that Im led to believe (Based on reports and personal experience) that one has to possess certain sociopathic traits in order to be a successful megachurch pastor? And why? If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. I wish he was still there and I know I would be living nearby and attending with spirit filled days and nights studying what he preached. This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. .. .amazing. Show me one bit of Biblical historicity in favor of the modern seeker-oriented megachurch. I am so tired of the evangelical industrial complex justifying there greed and sexual abuse and bullying. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. To the unsuspecting eye, everything contained in this document may seem legitimate or customary as far as church membership goes. Community groups are the epicenter of Watermark Church. Many won't perform gay marriage. We've put together a list of some ways . He is a restorer and a life giver, even as we ALL come to him seeking forgiveness. If not? Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. Our mission is to make disciples who are marked by the presence of God in order to leave a lasting mark. I cannot imagine that Jesus, given all options, would choose to live among the wealthiest citizens in the most landscaped, luxurious part of the city. Thats for God to reveal or conceal.. If you got the impression I was disingenuous or was minimizing someones hurt please forgive me. To demand that a victim produce evidence is a form of revictimization. What a strange and often sad world much of American white evangelicalism has become. Would you consider making a tax-deductible donation to help our journalists continue to report the truth and restore the church? My soul was touched. insincere; smooth-tongued, slick; greasy, oily, saccharine; Mickey makes it sound like the decision for Todd to resign was something weve arrived at due to events. Messages; Thank you for praying for me when I was a cigarette smoker snd 23 yrs of smoking addiction was lifted within a year or so afte that. Amy Smith of the blog Watchkeep has documented her experience there, and it bears much of the hallmarks of a cult. Confession, of course! These resources are found in Appendix V and Appendix VI at the end of this case study and in the clarifications given by Watermark in the section Watermark's Response to the Nation. Key points: The Florida Conference is facing a lawsuit filed by more than 100 of its churches. Unsure why he is getting criticized for living in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the school district it resides in. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. The judge in the case ruled for church arbitration, which for Scientologists and former Scientologists means something completely different than the average person. 1 Pet 2:25 A church membership contract errr. And, there was zero pressure from church leadership to do so. This gives freedom to members who may still be working through some of their beliefs while also holding the elders to a higher standard. i watched the video dont know how i got as far as i did i had to turn it off. Why wouldnt the devil try to tempt and discredit a Christian leader whos been respected by so many and positively influenced so many? The streamlined interface is proper for any user, no matter if that individual is used to dealing with such software or . the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. The building was used for free to us (but not them). I covered this in my previous post, When Is a Church Member Fair Game, referencing a case of church discipline that Watermark carried out publicly against one of its members. He began to consider that he was in a cult. Some titles of articles written about Watermark Church. on The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Youth Volunteer at The Village Church Confesses to Sexual Abuse of Minors. Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. I keep coming back to this because something just doesnt seem right. Having been a Watermark (now CityBridge) member since 2016 have never EVER heard these messages thatSusan speaks of. Help me to understand. I was one of the cold ones! Amazing indeed! Oh, I wouldnt be so sure of that. When I received the email from *Susan (pseudonym), a former Watermark Church member, she wrote, I am not the only former Watermarker out there who is nervous to speak up about this organization, because I refuse to call them a church.. Wagner is all about control and he lost it. Churches that utilize a confession like the Westminster, 1689, or the 39 articles seem comfortable requiring specificity in their doctrine for both members and pastors I think this is more transparent, and thus healthier, than having two statements. -, You write about the website, No Eden Elsewhere. Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagner's leadership. The teaching statement wasnt explained to me in the membership process. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. No longer fulfill the requirements of membership. It is the Lord Jesus who is in control after all folks. I have first hand experience with a senior pastor doing exactly this and teaching younger families how to properly budget and cost of having kids. he was reprimanded for not giving more to the church. Wagner should have sold the home and elected to live a less extravagant neighborhood (Highland Park). Thats why people leave churches snd are constantly hurt. Fellowship Church. Theres a lot of talk and a lot of Christianese language, but its still impossible to say exactly what happened or exactly what is and was going on. I know that there are many different types of church governance. a lavish lifestyle is contrary to everything Jesus stood for if Jesus still matters, and if anyone actually remembers. I dont doubt some unconcionable things happened. Aside from the fact that it was gifted to him (alarming at the very least) it shows poor stewardship and lack of humility on Wagners part. Theyre all using so much jargon that its hard to figure out what any of it actually means. Susan felt it was ironic that I had made a comparison between Scientology and Watermark Church, because she said those same comparisons helped her realize that she was not in a healthy church. Best wishes to the church members, though. We didnt share our financial information until almost a year into our meeting. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. You are correct. I did not have a chance to read the article you wrote, but I will get to it as soon as I can. Its how relationships are formed and accountability is established or thats what they want you to think. He publicly criticized other local church leaders and called them out in the media and then doesnt really share his issues. Dismiss the abuse of others how did you come to that conclusion? On the April 8, 2019 episode of WordsfromWags, a website that features videos from Watermark Church senior pastor Todd Wagner addressing various issues, the topic of the day was Is Watermark Church a Cult? Even through this challenges we can be so judgements these day. Are you calling smarmy, insincere? Im not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. I didnt feel the spirit when I heard him. Its upto Him. Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? that the elder board was ready to go in Todds leadership direction. Kind of smarmy too. The level of absurdity is a bit high here Im a member, not once have I been asked to fork out my money, not once have I been forced to makeRead more . Maybe Im straining at a gnat. WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. 5,280 were here. Even now, her parents (who worship there) refuse to talk to her or visit her children, simply because she was dutiful enough to report on the pedophile acts of a man who used to work at Prestonwood. I received some emails from former Watermark Church members who wanted to tell their stories, but were hesitant to share too much online, for fear of repercussions, or as I refer to it, fair game. I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. If by community you mean meeting with like-minded individuals to foster friendships & develop relationships then great. Products. How do you know Todd pays that? I have no comment on the Cabo thing; but I will say, the church was opened to anyone and anyone during the snowstorm, event the kids playhouse for children to play. If the leaders deem you unworthy of their support due to pride or sin struggle reasons, they will absolutely unequivocally unabashedly and with zero conscience or compassion, write you off. Having community is not the issue its how Watermark DEFINES community. THAT is what these people are afraid of. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. . Not to mention that even if the words are perfect its up to the listeners as to how they interpret it. One of the core values of the community groups is Live Authentically, which they define as being completely honest with one anotherthis means giving others permission to know the real you by sharing authentically. This includes sharing your sins, struggles, along with your entire life story, potentially to a room full of complete strangers. Read More. The announcement was captured on video and posted online with a statement from the elders. He walked with an air of superiority that was disgusting. If you challenged him or the church you were quickly dismissed. In our case, it is because those in leadership are held to a higher standard; more is expected of them in terms of their beliefs and practice. May we bear one anothers confessions with grace and mercy. This drum beat often is driven by pride, immature leaders thats been placed to seven themselves. I dont know folks.if you have to go online and record a video to explain how your church is not a cult..this might lead into a Jeff Foxworthy joke! However, if you have any experience with these covenants or have heard stories of people who have dealt with a church where they signed one of these and there was a point of contention or disagreement, you know that these are LEGALLY binding agreements and can be used against you (re: current The Village Church lawsuit& the Karen Hinkley story.). Todd was put on sabbatical to reflect about his proud attitude. Once youve signed your life over to them, you must either form your own community group or go through the process of being placed in one. I have however heard Todd Wagner say from the pulpit if youre not comfortable giving here thats ok, please give somewhere meaningful to you. | Grace Community Church. When he stepped into an executive pastor role a few years back he didnt like that his replacement (JP) was more poly than he was so he didnt allow him to pastor/lead. TODD WAGNER SURELY LED ALOT OF PEOPLE TO CHRIST. Theyre not only going to write you off but theyll make sure your entire community group does too.Read more , [] of absence in September 2020 to work on prideful sin that was increasingly becoming visible to church members. **THEIR shepherds** Dont need the large meetings with rock music and parking headaches and entertainers with impulse control issues claiming its the Holy Spirit in them. Smarmy Thesaurus At this link, you will find lots of information about how their community groups operate. Darren, I think I get where youre coming from with the idea of a teaching statement. How many have you all lead to Christ? Create new account. I believe this man would help many, I can say that without shadow of doubt. Leventhal doesnt seem very interested in this whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish toward Wagner. Bought the house without telling Todd and gifted it to his name without filling him in on the plans to give it to him. the artificial contrived way of being is over the top. And thanks for the word smarmy. 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